Discussion with Dún Laoghaire Harbour Company in the Oireachtas Committee on Transport - 02 December 2009.

Full transcript available on the Oireachtas website.

Ciarán Cuffe TD: I believe I first met Mr. Dunne when he was in Dún Laoghaire Harbour some nine years ago along with the Minister at the commissioning of the Granuaile. I was a Commissioner of Irish Lights at the time. If I recall correctly, he was suffering from a very bad cold at the time but he braved the chilly air and came out, for which I am thankful.

I welcome the Dún Laoghaire Harbour Company representatives. I want to ask them about the company’s future business, its pension fund and built heritage. I will start with the company’s future business.

Many speakers commented that the company has been very dependent on Stena. It also has an income from offices, the marina and parking. Can the company diversify into cruise traffic? What kind of vessels could be brought in? What type of tonnage of cruise vessels might the company be able to accommodate and what depth of vessel could be brought into the harbour?

In terms of the company’s future business, I am concerned that it is over-dependent on car parking. The residents of Dún Laoghaire would not be enamoured of the rates the company charges for car parking. What used to be a relatively easy job of parking and going for a walk on the pier is now dominated by the need to put sufficient money into the meter. The company has put a charge on almost any piece of tarmacadam within its boundaries, if not beyond, and the residents of Dún Laoghaire are concerned about that. I am concerned that the company is over-dependent on car parking. The representatives might address those issues.

The second issue is the future of the company’s staff and what appears to be the very serious position of its pension fund. Its staff are growing older yet from what I hear the pension fund seems to have dropped considerably in value. The representatives might comment on the percentage of the fund that is in equities and the future of the fund.

I want to ask a direct question. Has anyone who has taken redundancy or retired received their full entitlements because there is a view that some people received their full entitlements but others had to defer them? The representatives might address that question in their response.

Looking at the company’s accounts I am concerned about the figure of €105,000 for conciliation that went to four different consultants. That seemed to relate mostly to the east pier but it is a significant number of consultants and a significant amount of money being spent on conciliation. The representatives might refer to that when responding.

I am concerned about the issue of the foot patrols mentioned by Deputy Broughan. The company has the second oldest police force in these islands. The harbour police force is in place since 1817 and I would hate to think that foot patrols would be replaced by closed circuit television cameras. The representative said it would retain staff but will those staff simply be looking at television screens or will they be on the east and the west piers because security issues arise, particularly at night time? Over the company’s almost 200 years of history the constables and police have carried out an important role in preventing people from harming themselves and in dealing with the ordinary police issues that arise in the harbour. I would hate to think we would lose that continuity and that level of security that the police provide by walking the piers.

The third issue is in regard to the built heritage. I commend the company on having commissioned an inventory of the built heritage within the harbour but I was outraged at its demolition of the buildings on the Carlisle Pier. While no one will regret the loss of the 1960s ferry terminal additions, I could not believe the company would demolish the 150 year old railway buildings without going through any statutory process. As the representatives are well aware, I have a referral with An Bord Pleanála on that issue. I believe the company demolished those buildings illegally and it should replace them because over the month of September it wiped away 150 years of our architectural heritage in the heart of a heritage harbour. I am angry about that and I hope the company has retained the historic buildings, including the cast iron, which was one of the earliest railway buildings in these islands. I hope it has safely retained those buildings because I was taken aback that a semi-State body would demolish 150 years of history. I appealed to the company by way of telephone call and correspondence in the early weeks of September. I could not believe that not only would it demolish the 1960s buildings but that it carried on and demolished everything that dated from the 1850s. It was unfathomable that it would do that. I suspect it did it because it wants to park cars on the site. The company has a temporary planning application in for 100 parking spaces and I believe this was done so that it could have a cash crop of car parking. The old building would have been perfect for use during the Festival of World Cultures. In the month of December it could have located an ice rink there under a Victorian cast iron structure but it has wiped that away. It reflects very badly on the harbour company that it did that and on Mr. Dunne’s tenure as chief executive.

I am conscious that the previous holder of his office, in consort with the county manager of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, wished to build ten or 12 storey buildings on that pier. That was one of the excesses of the Celtic tiger. I do not believe it is suitable or appropriate to put in ten or 12 storey buildings along that pier and I hope the company will reconsider that proposal. I ask the representatives if they have put the Victorian elements in storage because they should be replaced rather than wipe away 150 years of history.

In terms of the future business of the harbour, I hope the company would examine the possibility of attracting cruise traffic if it has the capacity to do so. I am concerned about the staff’s future. I understand the company is examining the question of voluntary redundancies but I would like the representatives to comment on the pension fund because I am concerned about that. Finally, I express my anger and outrage about the demolition of the Carlisle Pier and ask the representatives to tell me whether they have put the elements in storage.

Mr Gerry Dunne (CEO Dún Laoghaire Harbour Company):  I have noted five areas. We are currently doing many feasibility studies. One specific study is on the ability of the harbour company to attract new ferry operators and cruise ships. My colleague, Captain Coate, is leading that feasibility study so, if it is agreed, it would be appropriate to ask him to update us on how that work is going.

Mr Simon Coate (Port Operations Manager, DLHC):  To answer the Deputy’s immediate question, Belfast and Dublin accepted approximately 80 cruise ships last year, ten of which we could take into Dún Laoghaire Harbour as it stands without doing any dredging and with very limited infrastructural work to the quay walls. One of those walls could be on Carlisle Pier where we have not been able to take ships up to now. They are small. We talked recently to the agents who handle the ships and they are quite excited about this. I do not know if members are aware but ships of such size and bigger have been visiting Bangor in County Down which does not have any of the facilities we have. They anchor outside and use tenders.

That brings me to the second point, the short term. At one stage we believed tenders were not welcomed by cruise operators but now we find they do not much mind using them. In the short term we would encourage some of the smaller ships to come, perhaps as soon as 2011. The programme for 2010 is already prepared. At the same time, for a very small cost, there could be a facility to accept tenders and then bigger ships would be able to anchor outside. We have had talks already with Dublin Port. The Queen Mary is too big to get into Dublin Port which has asked us to share a facility such as I described. In the longer term, if we get the income, we could possibly adapt a berth and take the larger ships, perhaps even alongside, which would be very welcome to the cruise agents.

To return to the Chairman’s point about ferry ships, one of the failures of the HSS was the high cost of fuel which was passed on to passengers. We believe the route to Holyhead is very strong. Some of the conventional ships are quite small and we can take them without doing too much extra work. The cost to the passenger will then come down. We think it is a very viable route and that we can do it with a conventional ship. It may be slightly slower but people do not seem to mind that.

Ciarán Cuffe TD: There is an incredible opportunity to bring people in by tender and allow them walk up Marine Road to the town, the cafés and the bookshops. That is something Dublin does not have. It is unique to Dún Laoghaire and I would encourage the Captain on that. I am sure Senator Regan shares my sentiments on this issue. We would love to encourage the company in that direction.

Mr Gerry Dunne:  We have formed a local stakeholder group, comprising Dún Laoghaire Harbour Company, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, the local business association and the local hospitality sector. The reason we formed that group was specifically so that those people who would come off the cruise ships, would find attractions, facilities and so forth in the locality and would not just get off and go down Avoca gardens or take the DART to the city. It is interesting when one looks at the cruise market that almost 90% of the economic value of the cruise opportunity is outside the port. The actual harbour fees associated with bringing in cruise ships are quite modest but the greater value lies precisely in the kind of things the Deputy was discussing: local tours, visiting heritage centres, restaurants, walks----

Ciarán Cuffe TD: They could have afternoon tea in the Royal Marine Hotel. We could talk all evening on this.

Mr Gerry Dunne:  All of that. There are time constraints but I have another four points to cover for Deputy Cuffe. I shall comment briefly on the harbour police at night-time. I reiterate we have made a commitment to our board and the chairman and I have discussed the matter. There will be night-time cover in Dún Laoghaire Harbour. There was an initial suggestion that cover would be by way of closed circuit television or a remote control device of that kind but we have put into our plans that there will be physical night-time cover in Dún Laoghaire Harbour. The actual way it will work is now subject to discussion between Captain Coate, representing the company and as operations manager, and the unions and shop stewards. That is a commitment we made to our board.

Ciarán Cuffe TD: I wish to point out very briefly that when there was a fire in the marina it took a considerable amount of time for the CCTV to pick up on it after the emergency services had been called and arrived. I have no great faith in CCTV.

Mr Gerry Dunne:  I wish to address the fifth question on heritage. We have retained all of the materials which our conservation architect, Ms Grainne Shaffrey, considers to have historical architectural merit. We have included a reference to one truss and 50 iron columns in our submission to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council for temporary planning permission for the development at Carlisle pier. In ordinary circumstances, we would be prepared to elaborate on the matter. However, because the matter is under review by An Bord Pleanála, we are not in a position to make many comments. In the initial stages we received professional advice that the buildings on the pier were derelict and in a dangerous state. They also contained asbestos which had to removed in controlled conditions. We believe we acted in good faith and within the law, based on the professional advice we had received.

Ciarán Cuffe TD: The advice the delegation had received was wrong. I do not believe it is prevented from commenting on it, as a legal case is not pending. There is a determination by An Bord Pleanála on the basis of a referral; therefore, the delegation is not prevented from commenting.

Ciarán Cuffe TD: I am upset that the delegation states one truss is in storage when I imagine that in the entire building there were 50 or 80 trusses.

Chairman: Did the delegation receive permission for the demolition of the building?

Mr Gerry Dunne:  We examined the issue very carefully and had many discussions at board meetings. We specifically sought detailed and comprehensive professional guidance from planning and legal points of view. It was unambiguous and the board had a full discussion on the matter. It was the case that we did not require planning permission to proceed with the proposed works. We went to public tender in July and, after appointing a contractor, proceeded to start the work in early September.

Ciarán Cuffe TD: From my reading of the advice given to the delegation by its professionals, it seems it could have gone down the path of referral to the local authority but it failed to do so.

Chairman: It seems from what Deputy Cuffe said, given that it was such an historic building, it was a pity to demolish it.

Mr Gerry Dunne:  All I can say is that we took the best possible advice we could.

Paul Connaughton TD: Why was it decided to remove it? What were the economic reasons, if any, for so doing? Was the building dangerous?

Mr Gerry Dunne:  If the Deputy is familiar with Dún Laoghaire Harbour, he will know it was an eyesore, something with which everybody would agree. It was derelict and there had been no public access to it for many years. The board took the view that it was a derelict structure which we should examine seriously and receive independent legal and planning advice on whether it should be taken down.

Ciarán Cuffe TD: I have one final thought. Does the delegation plan to demolish any other buildings?

Mr Gerry Dunne:  We are compiling a very comprehensive master plan for the harbour which will be brought forward with reference to the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown county development plan. All of the details of our proposed plan will be included in it.