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(The Minister referred Ciarán Cuffe to
his replies to two oral priority questions)
(1) Minister for Justice,
Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): I have met each of the
garda representative associations to discuss the Garda reserve. I have
also invited them in for more detailed discussions on the Garda
Commissioner's proposals on the recruitment, training, powers, duties
and deployment of reserve members. The chief superintendents have
already come in for one such discussion and, as the House will be aware,
the superintendents' association has backed the proposal but has stated
that it wants to be consulted as well, and it will be. I am grateful for
the very helpful comment it made. I expect to discuss the matter with
the superintendents next week.
I commend these associations for their positive attitude to the
proposals, and I hope that both the GRA and the AGSI will see the value
in now engaging in consultations. My door is open. I have made clear
that, subject only to respecting the will of the Oireachtas on the
establishment of a reserve, I am genuinely open to any constructive
proposals on the recruitment, training, powers, duties and deployment of
reserve members and I want to hear the views of the associations on
those matters rather than simply a sterile argument on points of
principle. I reiterate they have the opportunity to help shape the role
of the reserve and I urge them to seize that opportunity.
It was a pleasure to go to the AGSI conference recently and to be
allowed to address it. I noted that the rank and file members present
were divided, approximately 50-50, in support for the position which was
so strongly articulated by their executive. It was the executive's vote
that swung the day.
Although I may not get the same opportunity with the GRA, I will keep my
door open and I intend to publish the regulations in draft form——
Mr. J. O'Keeffe: I will have a chat with them for the Minister.
Mr. McDowell: ——to bring them before the Joint Committee on Justice,
Equality, Defence and Women's Rights and have a good discussion with all
Members of the House who are interesting in discussing their substance
at that venue.
Additional information not given on the floor of the House.
There is no obligation under the Garda Síochána Act to do so, as the
regulations simply require the approval of Government, but I thought it
right to undertake the widest possible process of consultation before
finalising the proposals for the reserve. I look forward to engaging
with the committee, and the committee may well take the opportunity to
hear a variety of different views on the proposals.
I recently commissioned research into the public's attitude to crime and
law enforcement, and I was particularly pleased, but not at all
surprised, at the strong level of public support this indicated for a
Garda reserve, with 73% of respondents in favour.
The Oireachtas has decided that there should be a Garda reserve and the
public strongly support this. The Garda Commissioner's proposals
envisage a thoroughly-trained reserve, with carefully selected powers
and duties, working under the supervision of members of the Garda
Síochána. I am engaged in a process of comprehensive consultation on
these proposals, including consultation with a joint committee of these
Houses.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh: At least the Minister acknowledged that my party
opposed the reserve from day one. We recognise that we were out-voted on
that.
At this stage, I want to minimise the damage the Minister intends to do.
With that in mind, I recognise that the Minister is engaged, in his
view, with the stakeholders in consultation. The problem is that the
Garda representative associations are not the only stakeholders in this.
One of the main stakeholders is obviously the community. Would the
Minister agree that the community is the ultimate stakeholder in all of
this? Why has the Minister not engaged in formal and meaningful
consultation with NGOs and community sector representatives such as the
Irish Council for Civil Liberties and the likes of Fr. McVerry and
people who have raised concerns about the reserve force, the police
force and its class basis in general? If he intends to do so, will he
immediately initiate consultation with those bodies and not proceed any
further until the outcome of those consultations?
Mr. McDowell: Deputy Ó Snodaigh spoke of NGOs representing the
community. As far as I am concerned, I suppose the Government parties
are GOs - governmental organisations - for the time being but the
Opposition parties are NGOs. The Opposition parties are non-governmental
organisations which have a mandate from the people to speak on these
matters. They have spoken with considerable clarity on the issue, and I
have consulted and will consult with them.
I will talk to anybody who wants to make a submission to me on the issue
or who wants to make an input, and I am sure the Joint Committee on
Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights of these Houses will take
into account all of those points of view.
On the other question of finding out what the people think, it is
noteworthy that the Deputies opposite were selective in quoting for
their purposes questions about attitudes to crime in a Department of
Justice, Equality and Law Reform sponsored opinion survey, which was
published in March last. I remind Deputy Ó Snodaigh, in particular, that
the overwhelming majority of people who were questioned in that survey,
on which reliance was placed for every other purpose in the House,
backed the concept of a reserve, while the overwhelming majority of
public representatives back it as well. It is not a question of
principle on which the public is badly divided. The question now is
implementation and consultation. I will consult the Opposition and the
Garda representative associations and I will encourage the Oireachtas
Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights to take
the opportunity to seek external views, as it so wishes. However, I do
not accept the proposition that the community is represented in these
matters by the views of the Irish Council for Civil Liberties or the
esteemed Fr. McVerry. The public is clear and I must rely on my judgment
as well in regard to people approaching on the street to outline their
views on the issue. It runs eight or nine to one in favour of
establishing a reserve.
(2) The Minister for Justice, Equality
and Law Reform In July 2005, as part of a submission on the future
resourcing requirements of the Garda, the Garda Commissioner proposed
the recruitment of up to 4,000 reserve members, as provided for in the
Garda Síochána Act 2005, and an increase in the force's strength from
14,000 to 15,000. In response, and in the context of identifying
policing priorities for inclusion in the Garda policing plan for 2006, I
set the objective of the recruitment of 900 reserve members by September
2006. Subsequently, the Commissioner submitted detailed proposals to me
on the recruitment, training, powers, duties and deployment of reserve
members. The proposals envisage a thoroughly trained reserve with
carefully selected powers and duties, working under the supervision of
members of the Garda.
I must make regulations under the 2005 Act, with Government approval, to
give effect to these proposals. I have made it clear that, before I do
so, I would like to have detailed consultations with the Garda
representative associations and I intend also to refer the regulations
in draft form to the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and
Women's Rights for its consideration. I should have them in the next few
days. The recruitment campaign for reserve members will commence as soon
as the regulations are made.
I have met representatives of all four Garda associations on this issue
and have invited them to further and more detailed discussions. The
Garda reserve will reinforce the links between the Garda and local
communities and it will enhance the capacity of the force to respond to
emerging policing challenges. I have seen how well special
constabularies, which are broadly equivalent to the reserve, work in
Britain and how good and effective are the relations between them and
the regular police forces. This is a great opportunity to enhance the
policing service and I urge the two main Garda associations to take the
opportunity to make their contribution to it. My door is open for
consultation.
Mr. Howlin: Did the Minister give a commitment to the Association of
Garda Sergeants and Inspectors that no members of the reserve force
would be deployed during the lifetime of this Dáil? The answer is yes or
no.
Mr. McDowell: I did not make such a commitment. I dealt with this issue
the last time I was in the House for question time. At the time the
draft heads of the Bill were being published, there was a Government
freeze on any further recruitment to the Garda Síochána above 12,200. I
told the AGSI that I would never use a reserve as a substitute to arrive
at the 14,000 member mark, which was promised in the programme for
Government. As things stood at that time, it was unlikely that any
recruiting of the reserve would be done in the life of this Government.
Things changed——
Mr. J. O'Keeffe: Or while he remained Minister for Justice, Equality and
Law Reform.
Mr. McDowell: I have ambitions which might go beyond that.
Mr. J. O'Keeffe: Those words were also included.
Mr. McDowell: I did not give the AGSI an undertaking that I would resign
at the end of this Government's term.
Mr. J. O'Keeffe: There is no need to do that. The people will do it for
him.
Mr. McDowell: I listened carefully to the Dáil debate on the issue. At
the beginning, there were delay mechanisms to the introduction of the
reserve force. The overwhelming consensus of this House - the only
exception to which was the view of the Sinn Féin Deputies - was that I
should go ahead and recruit the reserve now. The joint committee sent a
delegation to view how reservists work in the UK and it was so impressed
that it was in favour of the proposition. I am only doing what the
Oireachtas wants me to do.
Mr. Howlin: I posed a simple question which has a "yes" or "no" answer.
Mr. McDowell: No, I did not give any undertaking, but yes, I gave a
prediction that it would not happen.
Mr. Howlin: It is a simple "yes" or "no" answer. In my first meeting
with the AGSI spokesmen, they said the Minister gave such a commitment.
Did the Minister contact them subsequently to resile from that when
circumstances altered and the embargo was changed? It would have been
good practice to do so.
I share the view of the previous Labour Party spokesman on justice,
Deputy Costello, that there is a role for a reserve force. Will the
September 2006 target to deploy 900 recruits be met? Does he accept the
Garda Commissioner's recommended number of 4,000 recruits in total? What
is the training regime for the reserve? Is it set in stone or is it
subject to negotiation? Is the Minister now sure of the specific powers
to be devolved to the new reserve force?
Mr. McDowell: I received a submission from the Commissioner with his
proposals on the functioning of the reserve. That sets out in extenso
his view of the powers that the reserve force should have. It is not his
function to determine these matters, but rather a question for the
Government to make an order. I intend to consult with the joint
committee on these issues before we arrive at a final position.
I originally spoke of a ratio of 1:10, which means there would be about
1,400 members of the reserve force. The Garda organisation development
unit was working on that basis in early 2005. Different views have been
expressed since then. Deputy O' Keeffe suggested 5,000.
Mr. J. O'Keeffe: I thought I mentioned 4,000.
Mr. McDowell: He came up with 5,000. I have him on record in expansive
humour. It does not matter. If the size of the reserve relative to the
full-time force is a matter of concern to the force, I am willing to
discuss that issue. I wish to arrive at a consensus with the Garda
representative organisations. If they have a major problem with that
issue, then I am willing to discuss the limit of the reserve with them.
Mr. Howlin: What about the figure of 900 by September?
Mr. McDowell: That is the target.
Mr. Howlin: Does it remain the target?
Mr. McDowell: It remains the target for September. Training must be
carried out and I cannot suddenly click my fingers and establish
training courses all over Ireland. These things must be done gradually
and must be done to a high standard.
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